Wie finde ich den richtigen Akku?

Lithium Ionen Industriezellen IMR, INR, ICR & LiFePO
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shadockan
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Re: Wie finde ich den richtigen Akku?

Beitragvon shadockan » Do 23. Apr 2020, 23:13

Ginger my friend ...

Tables and numbers as a theory are something you can't think of as standard.

Take for example three batteries capable of 15A output.
Sony VTC6
Samsung 30Q
LG HG2
These batteries can deliver 50 Watts from 4.20 volts to about 3.30 - 3.40 volts, with DNA 75.
( Depending on the losses of your device and the circuit you use)
( I know these numbers because I have DNA 75 with copper contacts )

So with two such batteries, you will get 100 Watts for the same operating range.

With round-type Li-Ion batteries, it's generally hard to get 200 Watts.
If you request 200 W from two batteries, the circuit will give you this power until each battery reaches somewhere around 3.9 Volts.

With 10A batteries, you can have from 4.20 V to 3.30 V, somewhere between 20 - 25 W.
 
So if you ask for 50 Watts, you will be marginally efficient.
Nothing will happen, but in relation to the batteries
VTC6
30Q
HG2
you will have a higher voltage drop, with the result that the 500mAh larger capacity will not play any role in the total duration of the operation.

If you look at the voltage drop on an NCA 3500mAh battery compared to an NMC 3000mAh, you will see that there is a significant difference.
One reason is the internal resistance of the batteries and in NCA it is higher than in NMC.


So you benefit from NMC batteries ...
Molicel P28A
Molicel P26A
Samsung 25S
Samsung 30Q
Sony VTC6
Sony VTC5D
Sony VTC5A (and others ...),
despite any NCA 3500mAh 10A battery.

Take a look here and you will understand ...

https://liionwholesale.com/pages/regula ... calculator

m.k
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Re: Wie finde ich den richtigen Akku?

Beitragvon m.k » Sa 25. Apr 2020, 18:27

Nice post, just a little remark, not every powertool cell automatically uses NMC. Some do, but the biggest measure to get high power densities is electrode design. Here is an open access article on the topic, one can see that eg. the VTC5A also uses NCA, and some even do uses blends.
https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/5/4/64

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shadockan
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Re: Wie finde ich den richtigen Akku?

Beitragvon shadockan » So 26. Apr 2020, 16:58

Something is wrong.
Sony VTC5A can't be NCA .....

The chemical composition of the Sony VTC5A is .....
Li (NiMnCo) O²

It is an INR hybrid battery
 , of the NMC (NiMnCo) subgroup .

The chemical composition of NCAs is .....
Li (NiCoAl) O²

NMC and NCA batteries are called hybrids ( INR ) batteries and have something in common.
Ni and Co.
However, because Co is already something that has already been on batteries from the ICR's , you don't consider it an element that contributes to homogeneity.

However, there are batteries that do not have the same composition as those declared by INR batteries (NMC - NCA).

Sanyo NSX
--- NMCA ---
Li (NiMnCoAL) O²
 
Samsung 29E
--- NCO ---
Li (NiCoO2)

The Sony VTC5A, like all other KONION series batteries from Sony Energy (Murata today) , is an INR (NMC) battery.

m.k
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Re: Wie finde ich den richtigen Akku?

Beitragvon m.k » So 26. Apr 2020, 22:27

How do you know? Sony isn't telling you. You have to rely on investigations, such as the one I've linked. And if you think about it, it does make sense - the more electroactive nickel you are able to get stable in the mixture, the more space for conductive agents, better current collectors etc. is available in the batteries. Why would the best cells with cutting edge power and energy density not use the best available electrode material (like nickel rich NCA or NMC such as 811)? If it has drawbacks in diffusion or electrical conductivity you use e.g. smaller particles and be smart with your conductive agent. Better volumetric capacity makes your battery better, independent of it being a power or energy cell. From what I've heard RC pouch cells (marketed as Li-Po) were LiCoO2 for the longest time, but with thin coatings, stacked electrodes with a huge amounts of tabs they had very good power densities, which just wasn't an objective in the less power dense LiCoO2 notebook cells.

Ginger
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Re: Wie finde ich den richtigen Akku?

Beitragvon Ginger » Mo 27. Apr 2020, 15:44

Hi shadockan,
thanks for your post. I'm a little bit confused. You say:

So if you ask for 50 Watts, you will be marginally efficient.
Nothing will happen, but in relation to the batteries
VTC6
30Q
HG2
you will have a higher voltage drop, with the result that the 500mAh larger capacity will not play any role in the total duration of the operation.

But why do I have with two 35E-cells (bought 2 month ago) more puffs (471) than with two VTC6 (396, bought 3 month ago) till cutoff by the mod (3.2V)? Exactly the same mod, exactly the same Clearomizer and exactly the same coil. I have only changed the batteries.

Or does the voltage drop only come when the battery is older?

I have now repeated this test twice with 4 other batteries (bought at the same time as the others).
The result was the same.

Sorry, my English is anyting but good. I hope you understand what I mean.

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shadockan
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Re: Wie finde ich den richtigen Akku?

Beitragvon shadockan » Di 28. Apr 2020, 20:05

mk my friend .....

I found it .......

In the end, you were right.

--- * But that changes everything ..... * ---

Therefore, the Sony VTC5A is not at the same level of security as the
Moli P26A
Samsung 25S
LG H26
But the Sony VTC5A is not just called NCA as the picture shows ... (link)
It's called NCA / Gr-SiO.
The combination of Graphene (Graphite leaves) and Pyrite monoxide (SiO) differentiates it from the well-known NCAs and ranks it better in NCOs.
In fact, of course, NCOs are also related to NCAs .....


Unless there's something wrong with Murata
<<< https://www.murata.com/en-eu/products/b ... ylindrical >>>

SO ....
Sony for me ... no more.


You are also right that LiPOs are ICR (LCO).
Untill now .....
All LiPOs I have ... and I know ... , are ICRs ...

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shadockan
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Re: Wie finde ich den richtigen Akku?

Beitragvon shadockan » Di 28. Apr 2020, 20:22

Ginger hat geschrieben:Hi shadockan,
thanks for your post. I'm a little bit confused. You say:

So if you ask for 50 Watts, you will be marginally efficient.
Nothing will happen, but in relation to the batteries
VTC6
30Q
HG2
you will have a higher voltage drop, with the result that the 500mAh larger capacity will not play any role in the total duration of the operation.

But why do I have with two 35E-cells (bought 2 month ago) more puffs (471) than with two VTC6 (396, bought 3 month ago) till cutoff by the mod (3.2V)? Exactly the same mod, exactly the same Clearomizer and exactly the same coil. I have only changed the batteries.

Or does the voltage drop only come when the battery is older?

I have now repeated this test twice with 4 other batteries (bought at the same time as the others).
The result was the same.

Sorry, my English is anyting but good. I hope you understand what I mean.




Do not measure the duration with puffs.
It is not right .
If you do 5 seconds for one and 2 seconds for the second, the device will count 2 puffs ...
Not 7 seconds.

If your device can count time , it is the best.

Otherwise you need to measure the ml you will consume with constant Watts.


And something else .

What matters in electronic devices is the Watts you ask for.
Only Watts.
Not Ohms , Volts , Amps ....

If you are want power that the 35E can easily cover, then it is natural that they will last longer.
Or .......... your VTC6 is not ..... so good .....



My ..... ENGLAND ..... is no better than yours
:D :D :D


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